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發表於 11-7-19 00:15 |只看該作者 |倒序瀏覽 |打印

本帖最後由 sshoi 於 11-9-24 19:39 編輯

希望大家都能分享下﹐互相警惕。

1. 「只要有心就可以侍奉啦﹗」「有心唱歌就可以上臺帶唱﹗」
....恩賜同屬靈職份係聖靈隨己意分給各人嘅(林前12:11)。大衛當年都好有心建殿﹐掃羅當年都好有心獻祭。確實有心就可以﹐但唔係人嘅心意﹐而係神嘅心意。

2. 「歡迎大家來到教會參加崇拜..」「你最近有無返教會呀﹖」
....教會呢個詞在聖經出現大約114次(視乎譯本)﹐而呢個詞指向一個地方或一個建築物嘅次數係零﹐所以根本唔應該有所謂「去教會、返教會」﹐極其量只能夠話去教堂、返教堂。教會真正所指係信徒嘅群體(林前1:2)。

3. 「我個女細個時被診斷為智障﹐但感謝神﹐今日佢已經係醫生喇﹗」眾人鼓掌....
....以上係我在一個佈道會裡聽到嘅。成為醫生就眾人鼓掌感謝神﹐如果佢呢世都係智障﹐難道就無神嘅恩典﹖難道做醫生在神眼中就特別有價值﹖

4. 將教會人數看成係教會興旺嘅指標
....大衛一生中被神重罰過兩次﹐一次係因為犯姦淫﹐一次係點兵、點人口﹐可惜好多教會仍然未學識後者帶來嘅教訓。啟示錄入面主耶穌對七個教會有褒有貶﹐但無因為人數而畀過任何讚賞。

5. 將講道睇成係崇拜嘅最重要部份﹐其他部份例如唱詩嘅編排都係為配合講道內容
....聖經所描述嘅崇拜從來都無強調講道係崇拜嘅中心﹐更多係提及用禱告同詩歌來讚美、感恩、祈求。

6. 每次禱告都必須有讚美、認罪、感恩、祈求(ACTS)這四部份
....呢四方面係整個禱告生命嘅要素﹐但並唔係每一個禱告都必須有嘅﹐否則聖經所記載好多禱告包括詩篇都唔合格喇。

7. 「阿某某係返阿某某牧師間教會嘅...」
....間間真實嘅教會都係屬於耶穌基督嘅﹐唔係屬於任何一位牧師﹐就算係由呢位牧師植堂、牧會。

仲有其他﹐請自行加落去。

0 0 0

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bkchunpapa

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2^#

發表於 11-7-19 02:24 |只看該作者

我也回應一下,
樓主是位觀察入微的教友, 實屬難得, 很多現時基督徒也未能清楚自己所做或所說的其實是甚麼, 便去做了, 近乎盲目迷信! 感謝樓主的提醒。

我也有以下的回應, 大家一起討論一下吧:

1. 說得好! 再加上, 這些說話其實很多也是藉口, 例如「我們練習時間不夠, 但上帝必定補足」這類的說話, 也是為自己事奉不夠「盡心盡力」安排好落台階, 這也只是體貼人的意思~

2. 「你最近有無返教會呀﹖」教會確實是指信徒嘅群體, 但同時亦代表神既家, 可參考提前3:15; 如果從呢個角度出發, 「你最近有無返教會?」可以理解成「你最近有無返神既家?」, 咁既角度比「你最近有無返教堂(建築物)」不是更親切嗎? 文法上也不似出現謬誤啊~

3. 如果分享見證既弟兄姊妹, 只著眼見神做了「自己希望能看見」的事而感謝神, 而忽略神「真正的計劃」(神的計劃亦包括自己不希望看見的事, 例如為義受逼迫等), 這確實有問題; 但如果我們著眼於見證中的「報喜不報憂」, 好像也太鑽牛角尖了~ 這可能只是見證者其中一件事; 不一定就代表他的所有見證~~

4. 同意! 那麼樓主你認為一間教會是否興旺, 應該用甚麼指標?

5. 完全同意!

6. 如談到禱告, 最好的教材必定是耶穌親自教導的主禱文(叫公禱文更正確吧~), 但ACTS或其他類似的禱告方向, 必定是很好的指標, 但並不一定是聖經中的「直接答案」, 直接答案大家還是回到馬太福音6章中耶穌的教導吧~

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發表於 11-7-19 04:27 |只看該作者

本帖最後由 858D 於 11-7-19 04:28 編輯

我也回應一下,...........

Love is when the other person’s happiness is more important than your own ~ H. Jackson Brown

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4^#

發表於 11-7-19 08:08 |只看該作者

回覆 bkchunpapa 的帖子

3. 你如果睇到當時嗰位名牧嘅嘴臉﹐我相信你會同我差不多嘅反應。(當時如果我唔係負責做緊耳機翻譯﹐真係好想丟低個mic走左去)

4. 仲使問﹖梗係睇下間教會有幾大、每個禮拜收到幾多奉獻、有幾多項事工同活動啦﹗哈哈哈﹗

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fafacat ....係雖然牧者既水平各異.... 發表於 11-9-21 11:23

fafacat 3. SSHOI, 真係都要為你冇甘就走左去感恩, 神會親自教導每一位, 雖然牧者發表於 11-9-21 11:23

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anntx3

積分: 2019

5^#

發表於 11-7-19 11:16 |只看該作者

3. well，我明白教會群體中常有這種(得醫治便感恩)想法，而這種想法往往令人有這相反的疑問。(得不到醫治便不用感恩？)
我嘗試看福音書，主耶穌事實上真是治愈過不少人，被治愈的人當中，有人感恩、又有人忘了感恩，有到處宣揚的、也有被主提醒別張揚。
我相信這見證並沒有錯，至少見證了主耶穌醫治的大能。
可是，會使人誤會是成功神學.....我猜你指的謬誤是這點。
如果想平衡這想法，但很少見證能同時有另一見證，例如有另一個照顧智障子女的父母，分享照顧該智障子女的喜與悲，及分享當中上帝的同行，天父的安慰....等等。

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fafacat 更要幫那些專登在十字口祈禱的"敬虔"者, 聖經中, 他們善行是給人看的! 發表於 11-9-21 11:37

fafacat 但必須要在靈命上有長....進而再走出去幫助人, 未信, 也耍幫助那些在發表於 11-9-21 11:35

fafacat 約伯的苦澀, 是否在乎信徒自己的成熟度, 我由約伯, 傳道書, 又回到保羅惜日發表於 11-9-21 11:31

fafacat 但唯我們要盡力在平安, 喜樂時數算神的恩典, 好叫人見神大能榮耀, 約伯發表於 11-9-21 11:29

fafacat SSHOI, 基督家庭中有不少失望中等候既爸媽, 叫他們凡事謝恩,實在不易,但發表於 11-9-21 11:26

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發表於 11-7-19 12:16 |只看該作者

I see many similar problems in addition to what sshoi mentioned. The problem stems from something much deeper than appearances. The problem is deeply rooted in ourselves. However, I believe the solution is clear also.

The problem is this – the things we practice and do are only a reflection of who we are. I really wish that my only problem was in “understanding” what rituals or practices I need to observe in order to please God. No, that is not really a big concern. My concern is that I am not who I want to be. Do you know what I mean? Paul did. He had the same problem it seems. See I Corinthians chapter 7. Who am I trying to be? Jesus Christ. However, the mirror of my self reflection keeps on showing that old man I have always been. That is the problem. I am not being Jesus Christ. I need fixing. I am the problem.

That is a massive problem. If I was really “being” Jesus Christ, if people saw Jesus in me instead of that old man I want to put away, then the “doing” would fall into place. But as Paul said in I Cor. 7 there is hope.

To be continued . . .

Love is when the other person’s happiness is more important than your own ~ H. Jackson Brown

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發表於 11-7-19 12:17 |只看該作者

The solution is near to me. It is in my heart. It is located in the same place as the problem. In my heart, where I look into that mirror and see my true reflection, I do not see Jesus Christ, I see the old man. That is the problem. Right next to it is the solution. Aha! IF I keep focusing on the imperfections of the old man then I will become like Jesus Christ! No, I’m sorry. That does not work either. You see, I will always be imperfect and always be carrying around the burden of that old man with me as long as I am alive in this body. That is part of the cross I bear.

Instead of focusing on my self in a mirror, I should be focusing on the true nature of Christ, That is given to us through God’s word, the bible. In fact, it is full of Jesus and Jesus is so full of the ideas given to us in God’s word that He is called “the Word”! All He cared about was following the will of God and being like His heavenly Father. If I focus on that, then I can at least become more like Christ. Forget about the past, forget about the sins which trouble us, forget about those things which have no profit – such as carnal pleasures, worldly riches, status, etc.. Focus on the words given to us in the Bible. Let your spirit agree with His Spirit and follow Him.

To be continued . . .

Love is when the other person’s happiness is more important than your own ~ H. Jackson Brown

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發表於 11-7-19 12:18 |只看該作者

Hey, some of you might be thinking what I have been saying sounds familiar. Here it is:

Hebrews 12:1-3.

NIV version – “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.”

Thats all for now.

KNT

Love is when the other person’s happiness is more important than your own ~ H. Jackson Brown

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發表於 11-7-19 12:48 |只看該作者

definition for church
http://www.baby-kingdom.com/foru ... &fromuid=476619

I think these two threads are related because if there is a wrong idea of what church is there will be also mistakes in how to refer to it That also means we will not understand what we are striving to be also. It is fundamental.

KNT

Love is when the other person’s happiness is more important than your own ~ H. Jackson Brown

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發表於 11-7-19 20:54 |只看該作者

回覆 858D 的帖子

令我諗起一首兒童詩歌﹕

Here's the church, and here's the steeple
Open the door and see all the people.
Here's the parson going upstairs,
And here he is saying his prayers.

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發表於 11-7-19 21:11 |只看該作者

7. 「求神讓我地喺社區當中做鹽做光...」
....耶穌喺馬太福音第五章話你們是世上的鹽﹐你們是世上的光。兩者聽落好似無乜大分別﹐但差之毫厘謬之千里﹐前者容易畀人感覺係「你地現在唔係鹽/光﹐要求神讓你地將來成為鹽/光」﹐而耶穌所講係你地現在已經係鹽/光﹐已經有呢個身份﹐你地要去發揮出鹽同光嘅作用。

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54heima

水晶宮

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發表於 11-7-19 23:29 |只看該作者

mouth:

少奶奶的身份，丫頭的命...

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Lilo

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發表於 11-7-20 11:32 |只看該作者

好同意樓主所講，我就係經歷過神唔醫治我家人，一個一個咁離開，如果以有神蹟/有好結果先要感恩，先至可以作見證，我絶對係失敗見證，但我仍然感恩我家人已經認識神，我知道佢地去左邊，有朝一日我可以再見到佢地，我覺得此恩典無比大！

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fafacat 沒有多一個拉撒路,但作為追隋,每天都預備行難走的路, 天路就不難發表於 11-9-21 12:01

sshoi 感謝主。希望大家都能輕看世上短暫嘅成敗得失。發表於 11-7-20 12:15

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pkfox

複式洋房

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發表於 11-7-20 15:22 |只看該作者

bkchunpapa 發表於 11-7-19 02:24
我也回應一下,
樓主是位觀察入微的教友, 實屬難得, 很多現時基督徒也未能清楚自己所做或所說的其實是甚麼, ...

我想回應第1，我覺得啱的，好多時候就會用「我們練習時間不夠, 但上帝必定補足」，我不是否定這句話，但真的有盡力過嗎﹖我本身係一個在教會中彈結他事奉的人，但如果我認真就會比人話我唔體諒，但真係有冇諗過大家是否盡力呢。

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estw

男爵府

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發表於 11-7-20 17:17 |只看該作者

4. 將教會人數看成係教會興旺嘅指標
....

我想回應第4點. 雖然教會是否興旺唔可以用人數黎衡量, 但如果一間教會數十年都沒有增長, 是否需要反省吓係咩原因? 是否這間教會嘅信徒對傳福音冷淡, 冇一顆願神國度擴張嘅心, 所以教會人數只停留在最早期的一批會友, 而這批會友亦年紀漸老了. 我咁諗唔知啱唔啱?

『然而我告訴你們，就是所羅門極榮華的時候，他所穿戴的，還不如這花一朵呢！』
馬太福音六章29節

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熙媽媽

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發表於 11-7-20 17:36 |只看該作者

estw 發表於 11-7-20 17:17
我想回應第4點. 雖然教會是否興旺唔可以用人數黎衡量, 但如果一間教會數十年都沒有增長, 是否需要反省吓 ...

同意。

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熙媽媽